Lightphone: “What you choose not to do becomes your POV”
Lightphone: “What you choose not to do becomes your POV”
While big tech tries to become more and more ingrained in our lives, Challenger brands like Light Phone are refusing to fall in line. Rejecting the need to play by the attention economy rules, they are changing the criteria for choice — and building a loyal following as a result. Strategy Director Kirstin Piening spoke with founder and CEO Kaiwei Tang to understand what they’re challenging, how they think differently about product development, and why rejection is actually a good thing.
First off, could you please tell us about Light Phone? What is it and how does it work?
Light Phone is a simplified smartphone that only offers utilitarian tools.
What we're trying to do is strip away the business models of the attention economy and advertising, which, in my opinion, is the root cause of why we're so addicted to using our smartphones or social media.
We want to offer modern utility like podcasts, maps, obviously calling, texting and taking photos and calendar reminders – stuff like that. So, we call all the apps tools, because they were supposed to be designed as functional tools that empower human activities. They were designed so that you could finish a task quickly and then move on and live your life, go do the things that actually make you happy or are important to you. If you use a tool like a hammer, you use it and then put it down – you don’t swipe a hammer for 5 hours.
What we’re really trying to do is offer people another option. It's not about going back in time, asking people to live in a cave, don't use technology. We love technology. Without technology, we wouldn't be here.
What is the status quo within the category that Light Phone is challenging?
When it comes to smartphones, we somehow forgot that it shouldn't be one thing for everyone and for everything and for every single human experience. It’s just because we are so used to smartphones that we can't get our head around it, but we're not asking everyone to give up their smartphone. We're trying to say, ‘Hey, maybe this weekend, maybe if you feel horrible after using your smartphone for two years, maybe you should change.’
When was the last time that after using Tiktok or Instagram for three hours, you were like, ‘Oh, I feel so proud. I feel good about myself. I'm going to do it again, because I feel so good.’? We never say that. We all hate it. We can't stop, but I would argue, it's not us anymore. It's because big tech has invested billions in the attention economy engine. They need engagement so they can collect more data. But the more data they have, the more precise their data is for advertisers to target you.
That's why we started this company. It's not anti-smartphone. It's not anti-technology. But the current business model is so successful, and we as humans are so vulnerable to this design that gives us dopamine hits. We can't stand being bored.
So, we as a company, want to change how we design technology and how we make money. We make utilitarian focused tools and users pay for it and nothing else. We’re trying to change how technology companies make money and eliminate the attention economy for users. Because at big technology companies, their focus is not about us. Their mission is not aligned with us as humans, our human experience. I'm not saying this to be on the high ground, we are a for profit company. We need to make money to survive, but we don't utilise the attention economy. We're hoping to build a useful tool that does all these things, and then you pay for the tool, and that's it. That's how we make money, nothing else.
Challengers have ambitions that outweigh their resources – what are Light Phone’s ambitions, and have they changed over the last decade?
One thing that we’re really proud of is that we have been really consistent with our message and what we're trying to do, and it hasn’t changed. At the beginning of creating the company in 2014 my co-founder and I both had this vision of designing technology tools that empower the human versus the company. This design principle led to Light Phone, but it could be applied to different categories.
Our principles could apply to all different categories with Light as the brand, phone as the category. Because who needs a smart toothbrush? Why do I need an app? The business model is not selling you that object, the business model is everything you say, everything you do, every data point. That's how they make money. I just don't think it's fair or healthy to keep going on in that direction. I think it is a crisis of humanity and needs to be changed.
I think that there's a huge market where every smartphone customer can also have a Light Phone. You can have options. I use another analogy about Light Phone being like healthy food. You can eat all your regular greasy burgers and steak all the time, but when you realise healthy food makes sense, makes you feel good, makes you healthier, you will set aside time to find ingredients and cook healthier. You can switch back and forth. So, what's the benefit to using a Light Phone? The benefit of using a Light Phone is that it's like the healthy ingredients – it may make you feel less stressed out, like you have more time back and are more a part of productive relationships or are sleeping better.
Imagine a life that's not smartphone-centric right now, without this distraction. What would that life be like? What would be the benefits?
How do you think about product development at Light Phone? Do you have principles that you follow to keep you true to your beliefs?
Our perspective here is really clear - we're not trying to offer you entertainment. We're not trying to offer you social media. I can summarise our principles in three points.
Number one, I'll never show you an advertisement. You will never find any advertisement on any of the tools. Number two, we will never show you infinite feeds – nothing to browse, nothing to discover. Everything is designed to be intentional. Number three, every action you as a user take, has a clear ending.
For example, if you want directions from A to B, the direction tool will always navigate you through step-by-step directions and when you get to the destination, this user interaction ends. There's no other underlying motivation to try to engage you or try to entice you to look at this business or this restaurant on the way. That's not what you originally wanted to do.
So, with those three principles, as long as a tool fits into this criteria, we're happy to create them. We're trying to create a tap and pay tool because that's another great tool. We're just limited by how fast we can move, how many engineers we have. We're not Apple; we're not Samsung; we're not Google. So, it's more about prioritising the tools that will bring the most benefit and are most commonly requested.
You must get lots of requests for new features and tools to be added – how do you decide what to add and what not to?
Your essential tools in your phone are not going to be the same as mine or anyone else's. Everyone has different priorities. So those conversations between us and our customers or communities or even us internally are important to figure out what are the essentials.
For example, Light Phone III has a new camera tool, but we argued back and forth because Light Phone I and II do not have a camera. We felt like cameras were a distraction with posting, lighting, etc. But we got so much feedback from customers saying that, ‘I need a camera for my daily routine.’ ‘With my kids, I want to be able to capture a moment.’ We took that feedback internally and debated over the last few years while we were shipping Light Phone II.
We decided that if you break down the camera tool in your smartphone, the utility purpose is to document a moment, or document a receipt or object, so that you have that information or the moment saved. The distraction part is the liking, the commenting, sharing, thinking about who is going to like this photo, about where you're going to post it, or about liking people's comments and that’s not right and it becomes a huge distraction. So, we preserve the utility purpose of the camera tool for documenting. There's no zoom in, zoom out. There's no filtering, editing or posting. You just take a photo and save. That's it. Move on.
And that's how we design every tool in Light Phone. Because if you really sit down and think about it, there’s always one more thing that's a convenient tool for you, and you wish you could have it. For example, email: we get a lot of people, saying that, ‘I need to have email. I can't live without email.’ And I understand, right? If email is so essential for your job, for your routine, then your laptop is a great tool for that with a big screen and keyboard. It’s a more enjoyable experience and it’s designed for that purpose.
So, ask yourself, do you really need email 24/7? Wake up with email. Go to sleep with email. Hang out with your friends and kids with email. Go to the toilet with your email. Eat with your email. Is that really necessary? There are the right tools for each job. You use a hammer to hammer a nail. You pick up your mug for coffee. But you could argue, I'll just use my shoe to drink coffee. I'll just put coffee in my shoe and drink it. It works, right? But it's not designed for that purpose. Use the right tool for the job.
How do you talk to people about Light Phone and how do they react?
So, we're selling Light Phones, but a larger portion of what we're selling is the experience of going light, which means: leaving your smartphone behind, going out with just tools, no distraction – that’s the experience of going light.
The benefit of going light could be that you get 3, 5, 6 hours back every day. You feel less stressed out, you feel less anxious. You read more books. You become more productive, more creative, have a better relationship with your family, sleep better. These are all benefits that our users told us, and we've been sharing these user stories, so people can see the tangible benefit of this abstract idea of breaking away from their smartphone.
But using Light Phone definitely, at times, will be inconvenient. This is not a smartphone. This will not fit into your smartphone-centric lifestyle.
And that’s a foreign idea, right? Because you don't break away from a smartphone. You always have them 24/7, which is why what we propose creates so much tension. People love or hate it. There is a group of people that feel like this is going to change their lives and then there is a group of people that feel like, ‘what's the point? I have a smartphone that does everything I need it to do. Why do I need another phone?’ We've been doing this for 10 years, and this polarised conversation, never stops. We're still getting press every other day about this conversation now.
One of the things we know about Challengers is that they are not only clear on who they are for but also very clear on who they are not for. Given the polarised conversation around Light Phone, how do you as a company react to the ‘haters’?
I'm not proud about people hating us, but I love the reaction, because the last thing you want is to create a brand and everyone is like meh – no one has any reaction. You want reactions. So, I love the fact that everyone has very strong opinions about Light Phone. We're making a statement. We're trying to say, ‘I'm this kind of person. I'm going light this weekend. Call me. Text me. I'm not going to be on social media.’
We embrace people hating it. But what I want to understand is why. What's so bad about not being distracted all the time? What I'm proposing is, that sometimes you might not need those tools that have all the advertisements or tracking your location 24/7.
I always believe that you can't design one tool for everyone, right? The first mobile phone creator, Martin Cooper at Motorola, famously said that we can't design one thing for everything, for everyone, otherwise, this object will do nothing.
This feels like a very different perspective than what guides so much of the tech world. How do you stick to your beliefs in the face of that?
We’re in an era where with your smartphone and AI you can do just about anything – as long as you have some money or investment, because technology is so great and vastly available. The value now, in my opinion, is not what you can do, because you could do anything. The value now is what you choose not to do.
What you choose not to do becomes your point of view, and the value of an object like Light Phone. What we choose not to do is why people trust us. It's why we got organic press without spending any marketing money or budget. I have zero marketing budget, but people resonate with what we're trying to do. I attribute that to the fact that we stick to our values.
I know why I started the company and that has become my North Star that guides everything we do. We could slap up some advertisements. We could open up app stores on Light Phone. But that's not why we started the company. All the decisions we make in the company, from small to big decisions on strategy, fundraising, marketing, who we collaborate with, it's all from this principle.
What’s next for Light Phone?
We're proud that we're running an extremely efficient machine. We spend money on the most critical components of our operations within our principles. But a lot of the time what drives companies like us and myself included, is knowing the impact that we’ve created with this object.
So, we've been partnering with schools in the US like one that banned smartphones on campus. We supplied Light Phones to the entire campus, faculty, teachers and students. And the head of the school told us that after they started using Light Phone, the kids are now running around, they're making friends. There's no drama on social media. No teacher needs to tell the kids to put their phones down, and the whole vibe of the campus changed.
Knowing that positive impact and that we played a small part of it, is such a huge motivation to our team, to everyone involved in Light Phone. It’s priceless. And that's what keeps us going.
First off, could you please tell us about Light Phone? What is it and how does it work?
Light Phone is a simplified smartphone that only offers utilitarian tools.
What we're trying to do is strip away the business models of the attention economy and advertising, which, in my opinion, is the root cause of why we're so addicted to using our smartphones or social media.
We want to offer modern utility like podcasts, maps, obviously calling, texting and taking photos and calendar reminders – stuff like that. So, we call all the apps tools, because they were supposed to be designed as functional tools that empower human activities. They were designed so that you could finish a task quickly and then move on and live your life, go do the things that actually make you happy or are important to you. If you use a tool like a hammer, you use it and then put it down – you don’t swipe a hammer for 5 hours.
What we’re really trying to do is offer people another option. It's not about going back in time, asking people to live in a cave, don't use technology. We love technology. Without technology, we wouldn't be here.
What is the status quo within the category that Light Phone is challenging?
When it comes to smartphones, we somehow forgot that it shouldn't be one thing for everyone and for everything and for every single human experience. It’s just because we are so used to smartphones that we can't get our head around it, but we're not asking everyone to give up their smartphone. We're trying to say, ‘Hey, maybe this weekend, maybe if you feel horrible after using your smartphone for two years, maybe you should change.’
When was the last time that after using Tiktok or Instagram for three hours, you were like, ‘Oh, I feel so proud. I feel good about myself. I'm going to do it again, because I feel so good.’? We never say that. We all hate it. We can't stop, but I would argue, it's not us anymore. It's because big tech has invested billions in the attention economy engine. They need engagement so they can collect more data. But the more data they have, the more precise their data is for advertisers to target you.
That's why we started this company. It's not anti-smartphone. It's not anti-technology. But the current business model is so successful, and we as humans are so vulnerable to this design that gives us dopamine hits. We can't stand being bored.
So, we as a company, want to change how we design technology and how we make money. We make utilitarian focused tools and users pay for it and nothing else. We’re trying to change how technology companies make money and eliminate the attention economy for users. Because at big technology companies, their focus is not about us. Their mission is not aligned with us as humans, our human experience. I'm not saying this to be on the high ground, we are a for profit company. We need to make money to survive, but we don't utilise the attention economy. We're hoping to build a useful tool that does all these things, and then you pay for the tool, and that's it. That's how we make money, nothing else.
Challengers have ambitions that outweigh their resources – what are Light Phone’s ambitions, and have they changed over the last decade?
One thing that we’re really proud of is that we have been really consistent with our message and what we're trying to do, and it hasn’t changed. At the beginning of creating the company in 2014 my co-founder and I both had this vision of designing technology tools that empower the human versus the company. This design principle led to Light Phone, but it could be applied to different categories.
Our principles could apply to all different categories with Light as the brand, phone as the category. Because who needs a smart toothbrush? Why do I need an app? The business model is not selling you that object, the business model is everything you say, everything you do, every data point. That's how they make money. I just don't think it's fair or healthy to keep going on in that direction. I think it is a crisis of humanity and needs to be changed.
I think that there's a huge market where every smartphone customer can also have a Light Phone. You can have options. I use another analogy about Light Phone being like healthy food. You can eat all your regular greasy burgers and steak all the time, but when you realise healthy food makes sense, makes you feel good, makes you healthier, you will set aside time to find ingredients and cook healthier. You can switch back and forth. So, what's the benefit to using a Light Phone? The benefit of using a Light Phone is that it's like the healthy ingredients – it may make you feel less stressed out, like you have more time back and are more a part of productive relationships or are sleeping better.
Imagine a life that's not smartphone-centric right now, without this distraction. What would that life be like? What would be the benefits?
How do you think about product development at Light Phone? Do you have principles that you follow to keep you true to your beliefs?
Our perspective here is really clear - we're not trying to offer you entertainment. We're not trying to offer you social media. I can summarise our principles in three points.
Number one, I'll never show you an advertisement. You will never find any advertisement on any of the tools. Number two, we will never show you infinite feeds – nothing to browse, nothing to discover. Everything is designed to be intentional. Number three, every action you as a user take, has a clear ending.
For example, if you want directions from A to B, the direction tool will always navigate you through step-by-step directions and when you get to the destination, this user interaction ends. There's no other underlying motivation to try to engage you or try to entice you to look at this business or this restaurant on the way. That's not what you originally wanted to do.
So, with those three principles, as long as a tool fits into this criteria, we're happy to create them. We're trying to create a tap and pay tool because that's another great tool. We're just limited by how fast we can move, how many engineers we have. We're not Apple; we're not Samsung; we're not Google. So, it's more about prioritising the tools that will bring the most benefit and are most commonly requested.
You must get lots of requests for new features and tools to be added – how do you decide what to add and what not to?
Your essential tools in your phone are not going to be the same as mine or anyone else's. Everyone has different priorities. So those conversations between us and our customers or communities or even us internally are important to figure out what are the essentials.
For example, Light Phone III has a new camera tool, but we argued back and forth because Light Phone I and II do not have a camera. We felt like cameras were a distraction with posting, lighting, etc. But we got so much feedback from customers saying that, ‘I need a camera for my daily routine.’ ‘With my kids, I want to be able to capture a moment.’ We took that feedback internally and debated over the last few years while we were shipping Light Phone II.
We decided that if you break down the camera tool in your smartphone, the utility purpose is to document a moment, or document a receipt or object, so that you have that information or the moment saved. The distraction part is the liking, the commenting, sharing, thinking about who is going to like this photo, about where you're going to post it, or about liking people's comments and that’s not right and it becomes a huge distraction. So, we preserve the utility purpose of the camera tool for documenting. There's no zoom in, zoom out. There's no filtering, editing or posting. You just take a photo and save. That's it. Move on.
And that's how we design every tool in Light Phone. Because if you really sit down and think about it, there’s always one more thing that's a convenient tool for you, and you wish you could have it. For example, email: we get a lot of people, saying that, ‘I need to have email. I can't live without email.’ And I understand, right? If email is so essential for your job, for your routine, then your laptop is a great tool for that with a big screen and keyboard. It’s a more enjoyable experience and it’s designed for that purpose.
So, ask yourself, do you really need email 24/7? Wake up with email. Go to sleep with email. Hang out with your friends and kids with email. Go to the toilet with your email. Eat with your email. Is that really necessary? There are the right tools for each job. You use a hammer to hammer a nail. You pick up your mug for coffee. But you could argue, I'll just use my shoe to drink coffee. I'll just put coffee in my shoe and drink it. It works, right? But it's not designed for that purpose. Use the right tool for the job.
How do you talk to people about Light Phone and how do they react?
So, we're selling Light Phones, but a larger portion of what we're selling is the experience of going light, which means: leaving your smartphone behind, going out with just tools, no distraction – that’s the experience of going light.
The benefit of going light could be that you get 3, 5, 6 hours back every day. You feel less stressed out, you feel less anxious. You read more books. You become more productive, more creative, have a better relationship with your family, sleep better. These are all benefits that our users told us, and we've been sharing these user stories, so people can see the tangible benefit of this abstract idea of breaking away from their smartphone.
But using Light Phone definitely, at times, will be inconvenient. This is not a smartphone. This will not fit into your smartphone-centric lifestyle.
And that’s a foreign idea, right? Because you don't break away from a smartphone. You always have them 24/7, which is why what we propose creates so much tension. People love or hate it. There is a group of people that feel like this is going to change their lives and then there is a group of people that feel like, ‘what's the point? I have a smartphone that does everything I need it to do. Why do I need another phone?’ We've been doing this for 10 years, and this polarised conversation, never stops. We're still getting press every other day about this conversation now.
One of the things we know about Challengers is that they are not only clear on who they are for but also very clear on who they are not for. Given the polarised conversation around Light Phone, how do you as a company react to the ‘haters’?
I'm not proud about people hating us, but I love the reaction, because the last thing you want is to create a brand and everyone is like meh – no one has any reaction. You want reactions. So, I love the fact that everyone has very strong opinions about Light Phone. We're making a statement. We're trying to say, ‘I'm this kind of person. I'm going light this weekend. Call me. Text me. I'm not going to be on social media.’
We embrace people hating it. But what I want to understand is why. What's so bad about not being distracted all the time? What I'm proposing is, that sometimes you might not need those tools that have all the advertisements or tracking your location 24/7.
I always believe that you can't design one tool for everyone, right? The first mobile phone creator, Martin Cooper at Motorola, famously said that we can't design one thing for everything, for everyone, otherwise, this object will do nothing.
This feels like a very different perspective than what guides so much of the tech world. How do you stick to your beliefs in the face of that?
We’re in an era where with your smartphone and AI you can do just about anything – as long as you have some money or investment, because technology is so great and vastly available. The value now, in my opinion, is not what you can do, because you could do anything. The value now is what you choose not to do.
What you choose not to do becomes your point of view, and the value of an object like Light Phone. What we choose not to do is why people trust us. It's why we got organic press without spending any marketing money or budget. I have zero marketing budget, but people resonate with what we're trying to do. I attribute that to the fact that we stick to our values.
I know why I started the company and that has become my North Star that guides everything we do. We could slap up some advertisements. We could open up app stores on Light Phone. But that's not why we started the company. All the decisions we make in the company, from small to big decisions on strategy, fundraising, marketing, who we collaborate with, it's all from this principle.
What’s next for Light Phone?
We're proud that we're running an extremely efficient machine. We spend money on the most critical components of our operations within our principles. But a lot of the time what drives companies like us and myself included, is knowing the impact that we’ve created with this object.
So, we've been partnering with schools in the US like one that banned smartphones on campus. We supplied Light Phones to the entire campus, faculty, teachers and students. And the head of the school told us that after they started using Light Phone, the kids are now running around, they're making friends. There's no drama on social media. No teacher needs to tell the kids to put their phones down, and the whole vibe of the campus changed.
Knowing that positive impact and that we played a small part of it, is such a huge motivation to our team, to everyone involved in Light Phone. It’s priceless. And that's what keeps us going.
Putting the joy back into work (with Bruce Daisley)
If work takes up so much of our lives, and so much of work’s output is down to discretionary effort, how do we make work more engaging - as leaders of teams, and as workers ourselves?
Bruce Daisley has become a world expert on it. Previously the MD of YouTube in the UK, Bruce was the European Head of Twitter when he started exploring the meaning and future of work in a podcast, Eat Sleep Work Repeat. His first book, The Joy of Work, was a Sunday Times number one business bestseller and an FT Book of the Month. He is also the host of the hugely successful podcast ‘Eat Sleep Work Repeat’.
In this episode Adam and Bruce first discuss how to get rid of the things that suck the joy out of work, and then how to create a positive buzz in our engagement, as an individual and as a team.
They talk about:
- What the really big disruption in work has been (and it’s not wfh)
- The essential foundations for making any impact whatsoever on engagement in a culture
- The two key indicators of real engagement at work
- Why idle time is so important
- The real enemy of productivity in an organisation
- The power of Positive Affect
- The surprising importance of laughter
And why, when so much is known about how to drive up engagement at work, so little of that knowledge makes it into the leadership meetings of big organisations.
Listen to Eat Sleep Work Repeat:
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/eat-sleep-work-repeat/id1190000968
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5KUW5Lu36O4nnfIFqIIUh4
Bruce's books:
The Joy of Work: 30 Ways to Fix Your Work Culture and Fall in Love with Your Job
Fortitude: The Myth of Resilience, and the Secrets of Inner Strength
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Follow Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Lessons, Frameworks, Power and Sex (a look back at Season 1)
In this bonus episode Adam summarises the key themes and learnings across all the guests from the first season, to make it useful and usable for you.
He breaks his conclusions into five sections:
1. The Cost of Dull and the Value of Interesting
2. The Four Kinds of Dull
3. Finding the right way to be interesting for you
4. Common themes and key ideas across all the guests
5. How to use it
Read the full transcript of the episode at The Challenger Project.
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Leading the world towards hope (with Gail Gallie)
We’re at an inflection point in how we engage people about the UN’s Sustainable Development Goals, Gail Gallie believes: we now need a completely new model – ‘The gloves are off’. Gail left a successful career in advertising and at the BBC to help set up Project Everyone with campaigner and film director Richard Curtis – their aim: to communicate the UN’s Sustainable Development Goals to everyone in the world in one week. 10 years later, she remains a relentless campaigner and innovator around communicating the SDGs, including the podcast she hosts with Loyiso Madinga, ‘An Idiot’s Guide to Saving The World’.
In this week's episode, Gail and Adam discuss:
- How the combination of a big ambition and a fierce time constraint drove breakthrough solutions for Project Everyone
- The new context: how the whole world has changed, and we need to move on from the old model now
- What this new model of impact campaigning should look like
- The role of surprise here, and how to get the most value from it
- Why the creative campaigning community now has to go for broke
- What it means to engage people in the conversation where they care when it comes to the SDGs, and in language they can relate to
And, in Richard Curtis’ words ‘What is the sound of hope we can make against the noise of despair?’
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Follow Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Giving up the gold (with Nick Reed)
Named ‘one of the most 10 influential Brits in Hollywood’ by The Sunday Times, Nick Reed has been a successful Hollywood agent, won an Oscar for a documentary called ‘The Lady in Number 6’, and co-founded the most successful viral content company in the US.
In this episode, Nick discusses with Adam what makes something not just more interesting, but interesting enough to share – along with what it’s like to celebrate winning an Oscar with Bill Murray, how to get cast in a Steven Spielberg film, and how to get a Hollywood studio to buy a writer that nobody wants to buy. And at the heart of Nick’s philosophy is what he calls ‘giving up the gold’: giving value to the other person early, without expecting anything in return. A longer episode that ends this first season, we hope you enjoy it.
Nick's company - Shareability: https://www.shareability.com/
Follow Nick on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-reed-79269731/
Watch Nick's Oscar winning film, The Lady in No. 6, here: http://nickreedent.com/
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Interesting at the speed of culture (with Nick Tran)
Is TikTok the most interesting platform in the world? What’s at the heart of its success – and what does it mean to be more interesting in a post TikTok world, when the audience on TikTok is “10x bigger every day than the Super Bowl”?
In this week’s episode, Adam meets Nick Tran, former Global Head of Marketing at TikTok and advisor to a new generation of Challengers, including tech company Nothing. Nick brings his experience as a marketer, advisor and investor to discuss:
- How TikTok has changed the playing field for a new generation of brands
- How he led ‘Project Cheetah’ to reduce TikTok’s campaign development cycle from 10 weeks to a few days.
- The creativity that financial and time constraints force you to develop
- Why he always looks for win-win-win partnerships
- Learning how to create a ’must-see’ piece of creative work
- Why he believes in moving creative in-house to speed up social
- The need for a balanced diet of marketing measurement beyond KPIs and ROI
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Connect with Nick on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholastran/
Follow Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
The third American art form (with Russell Davies)
Powerpoint has become the poster child of Dull – can even this most maligned of mediums really be a tool to be more interesting? Russell Davies not only believes it can, but that it’s the third American art form, along with jazz and hip hop – but only if we think of it and use it in a very different way. It seems such a symbolic flip for the cliché of ‘Death by Powerpoint’, that we’ve given it its own short episode. Here Russell shares his very simple rules for really engaging an audience through Powerpoint.
Russell's book: Do Interesting. Notice. Collect. Share.
https://thedobook.co/products/do-interesting-notice-collect-share
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Creating character at Dishoom (with Sara Stark)
For 10 years Sara Stark was part of the team helping the founders of Dishoom build their restaurant brand and business – a brand that is as rich, engaging and layered as so many other restaurants are superficial and glib.
It’s a conversation about stories, and curiosity, and inventiveness, and layering, and pushing the idea. About a continual commitment to exploring and digging and experimenting and keeping things fresh. About thinking about what it means to be different, genuinely different and engaging, in a way that seems entirely unlike the rest of the business.
If you are remotely interested in brand building, experience or culture the Dishoom story is an inspiration.
Connect with Sara on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-stark-creative-marketing/
Explore the layers of the Dishoom story at https://www.dishoom.com/
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Follow Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Making the magic more probable (with Russell Davies)
One of the most stimulating speakers in brands and communications, Russell has been thinking about what it means to be interesting for over 20 years. In his new book Do Interesting – Notice. Collect. Share. Russell has codified the practice he’s used to make the world more interesting to him, and to make himself better positioned to bring interest to whatever topic he finds himself working on, inside and outside the world of brands. In this episode he shares how we can do it easily, too.
https://thedobook.co/products/do-interesting-notice-collect-share
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
The question is more important than the answer (with Warren Berger)
Warren Berger began exploring how to ask better questions through a journalistic interest in innovation. He’s come to believe the importance of questions is much broader than that, and has come on to champion the development of better questioning skills in everything from education to our personal relationships.
He has written widely on the topic, including ‘A More Beautiful Question: The power of inquiry to spark breakthrough ideas’.
In a discussion of some of his central findings and ideas we talk about:
- Why the question can be more important than the answer
- What makes a question dull or interesting
- How a good question shifts things
- The power of ‘Questionstorming’
- How a good question ‘attracts’ answers
- His three part model to asking better questions
- Why businesses should think about having Mission Questions, rather than Mission Statements
And the power for all of us in having three big questions that guide our lives.
Find out about Warren's books on his website: https://warrenberger.com/warren-bergers-books/
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Lashing the world with story (with John Yorke)
While storytelling isn’t the automatic answer to every kind of ‘dull’, if we’re going to learn how to tell more interesting stories we should learn from the best. John Yorke founded the BBC Studio Writer’s Academy after a career that included being Head of Channel4 Drama and Controller of BBC Drama Production, working on and producing some of the world’s most widely viewed and critically acclaimed TV drama, from EastEnders to Shameless, Life on Mars and Wolf Hall. In this episode, he shares with Adam his learnings about how we can all tell a story that will really engage our audience.
Read John’s book: Into The Woods: How stories work and why we tell them
John’s company and training services: https://www.johnyorkestory.com/
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
How to tell a big story in just 90 seconds (with Louisa Preston and Luisa Baldini)
How do you engage an audience in something that really matters in just 90 seconds? Where do you start? How do you overcome the ‘curse’ of everything you know?
In this episode Adam talks with two former BBC reporters, Louisa Preston and Luisa Baldini, about how they become experts in being compelling in 90 seconds, in careers where they covered everything from the 7/7 bombings and the Amanda Knox trials to interviewing Richard Gere on the red carpet. They now have their own business, Composure Media, that helps executives become brilliantly succinct themselves.
They discuss:
- Their model for engaging in 90 seconds: ‘Hook, Line, and Sinker’
- Why you should always start with your strongest ‘picture’
- Overcoming the curse of expertise
- The importance of the story that only you know
- How to manage a confidence crisis
- What to do when your Hollywood star goes rogue on live TV
And we close by discussing a big part of their work today: helping female executives develop a more confident elevator pitch and presence.
Find out about Louisa and Luisa's work here: https://www.composure.media/
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
The interesting Squiggle and the long ‘Aha’ (with Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis)
The Squiggly Careers podcast has been hugely influential and useful for anyone interested in Career Development community. In this episode I talk to Sarah Ellis and Helen Tupper, the brilliant pair behind the podcast, the two bestselling books that have come out of it – Squiggly Careers and You Coach You – and the company they have founded, Amazing if.
We discuss:
- How, in looking to throw out the old model of the ‘career ladder’, they arrived at that fascinating idea and language of the ‘squiggle’
- How they’ve found a much more engaging way to talk to people about confidence issues, and why it works
- Why dullness in large organisations is often a kind of conformity
- How to be a ‘helpful rebel’ in big companies if you want to help shake up dull practices
Along the way, they talk about a fascinating idea: ‘the long aha’ – that realisation that comes to you sometime after an engaging moment in a meeting, prompting you to question something you are doing, when you realise how pervasive that practice and issue has been in your life. As fascinating and useful as you would expect from the inimitable Sarah and Helen.
Listen to the Squiggly Careers podcast
Find out more about Amazing If's work
Helen and Sarah's books:
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
The five components of interesting (with Jeffre Jackson and Dave Nottoli)
This week Adam talks to renowned planners David Nottoli and Jeffre Jackson about their research into ‘interestingness’ in advertising.
Drawing from their experience David and Jeffre share their definition of the five key components of interesting:
- How incongruity reinforces memory
- Why Don Draper might be wrong about emotions
- The significance of fish sticks
- Why authenticity isn’t just a buzzword
- Why the details really matter, even if 99% of people don’t notice them
We also learn why we should avoid chasing empty spectacle in the battle for attention, why Nike’s legendary work with athletes can’t be replicated by just any sports brand, what the classic Cadbury’s Gorilla ad teaches us about mystery, and the risk of being sucked into the ‘boreplex’.
Watch Jeffre’s 2006 video on Interestingness: how interesting ads work differently, and what value Interestingness delivers for marketers.
Nike x Charles Barkley “I am not a role model”
Nike x Tiger Woods "I Am Tiger Woods"
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Two thousand years more interesting (with Professor Arlene Holmes-Henderson)
In this episode we talk to Professor Arlene Holmes-Henderson, Professor of Classics Education and Public Policy at Durham University, about her fierce belief in the enduring relevance of classical rhetoric to today’s world, and why its value in helping disadvantaged children find their voice in a more engaging way is fundamental to how schools need to develop oracy, alongside literacy and numeracy. And at the end, she gives a 10-minute masterclass in classical rhetoric that we can all use to make a speech more interesting.
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Arlene's books Forward with Classics and Expanding Classics
The ‘Shy bairns get nowt’ project https://www.durham.ac.uk/news-events/latest-news/2023/05/shy-bairns-get-nowt/
Arlene's work in The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/04/brucey-and-caesar-can-help-children-improve-oracy-says-classic-professor
Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Does our attention define us? (with Faris Yakob)
Faris Yakob believes that attention is not merely the first step to engagement with something, but a fundamental shaper of who we are: if ‘we are what we eat’, then what we pay attention to comes to define us.
The author of ‘Paid Attention’ and co-founder of Genius Steals, he and his wife Rosie have spent the last ten years as modern nomads, consulting, speaking and writing. In this episode Adam and Faris discuss:
- How Faris’ diverse career and nomadic life has been ‘a quest for interesting’
- Why attention is part of the substance of our existence
- Why it is impossible to buy attention today …
- …And yet everyone is still competing for our attention all the time
- Strategies for earning attention in a saturated media age
- Why the ‘most interestingness’ comes in the connection of domains that are not obviously connected
Follow Faris on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/farisyakob/
Subscribe to Faris and Rosie's substack 'Strands of Genius': https://geniussteals.substack.com/
Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
How to win a peacock show (with Gemma Parkinson)
This is a podcast for people who can’t afford to bore their audience. And in this episode we talk to Gemma Parkinson, a Global Marketing and Business Director at Moet Hennessy, about how to elevate a presentation into an irresistible performance when you really need to carry an audience with you. A fresh, energetic and charismatic thinker, Gemma shares her advice about how to elevate the interest when it really matters.
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Does our attention define us? (with Faris Yakob)
That’s enough about humour and the lighter side of interesting.
It’s time to step into the dark.
This week Adam meets researcher Mathias Clasen, co-founder of the ‘Recreational Fear Lab’ and author of Why Horror Seduces and A Very Nervous Person's Guide to Horror Movies, to talk about what he’s learned from haunted houses and horror movies, and how to find the ‘sweet spot’ of scary.
Adam and Mathias discuss:
- The definition of ‘recreational fear’, and why it’s not just for horror film fans
- The evidence that shows why fear is good for us. Why children need more ‘risky play’ for their development than we are giving them, and the surprising results of Mathias’ research into fear on our immune systems
- The physiological and cognitive relationship between fear and enjoyment
- Why we should all make friends with Mr Piggy
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Read Mathias's books:
A Very Nervous Person's Guide to Horror Movies
Watch Mathias's TedX talk: Lessons from a terrified horror researcher
Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
On Saturn it’s raining diamonds (with Addison Brown)
How can we be interesting enough to stick in our audiences’ long-term memory? In this episode, Adam speaks to Addison Brown, the science teacher who was the star of a recent Department for Education recruitment film. They discuss the four key principles that underpin success in every lesson – from cognitive load to dual coding – and how shorter pupil attention spans and higher expectations have driven a ‘blossoming of imagination within teaching'.
'Every Lesson Shapes a Life': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGd_Rrs-qNY
Brian Cox asks 'what more do you want?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uqa2TMzag4
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Stand up and make me laugh (with Chris Head)
Last week’s episode made the business case for humour - but how do we start to find our funny? This week Adam Morgan meets standup comedy writing and speaking coach Chris Head for a comedy masterclass.
Chris shares practical experience and techniques he uses when working with comedians, how he helped stand-up Stepfania Licari push her personal stories for the biggest payoff and coached Richard Lindesay to become a headliner (and TikTok star), all while punching up Adam’s jokes along the way,
They discuss:
- The power of comedy to help engage people with serious and challenging subjects
- Simple techniques to build humour and surprise into anything from a story to an internal announcement
- The importance of making an immediate connection with the audience to break the tension
- The craft involved to go from a joke-shaped thought into a bigger, funnier routine
- The power of misdirection (but not the magic kind)
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Contact Chris (or sign up to a course): https://www.chrishead.com/
Chris’s books:
Creating Comedy Narratives for Stage and Screen
A Director's Guide to the Art of Stand-up
The Complete Comedy Script Toolkit
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
The secret of Elmo’s success (with Norman Stiles)
In this episode, Adam talks with Norman Stiles, for 20 years the Head Writer on Sesame Street, about the pioneering pairing of entertainers and educators that changed the educational life of a generation. And how success lay in a very simple ambition that has fascinating implications for us all. Sesame Street made something possible that people thought couldn’t be done. What can it teach us about the audiences we want to really engage?
Watch the classic Sesame Street scenes that Norman refers to during the conversation:
- Grover really wants us to learn near and far
- Ernie answers the Count's telephone
- Telly tries to help Elmo get over his fear of clowns
- Big Bird learns about 'just because' and says goodbye to Mr Hooper
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
The commercial case for humour (with Bridget Angear)
Is our business leaving money on the table by being too serious? In this episode, Adam speaks to Bridget Angear, legendary strategic planner and co-founder of Craig + Bridget, about her recent research “The Business Case for Humour in Advertising”.
Adam and Bridget explore the evidence for the business effects of humour as revealed in the IPA database, and the different values that different types of humour can have for us if we’re looking to be more engaging.
They look at why marketing and communications might be less entertaining now than it used to be, and they consider why agencies and clients seriously need to have a bit more fun.
Because, despite the business case for humour, have we all become just too scared to be funny?
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Watch Bridget deliver “The Business Case for Humour in Advertising” here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=r91B08Xebtg
Bridget's books -
- The insiders' guide to advertising: How the business of advertising really works
- Creative problem solving.: A useful little strategy book by craig+bridget
- Revolt: A movement owner's manual
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Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth, our producer Travis, and to Tiny Podcasts.
Who Are You Really? (with Ross Buchanan)
In this episode, Adam talks to national radio presenter Ross Buchanan (Absolute Radio, Radio X) about what it takes to be interesting for four hours with an audience you never actually see. How much is it about being more interesting in what you say and do, and how much is it about what you share of yourself? And why shouldn’t you talk about biscuits?
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Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Break that routine (with Simon Peacock)
This week Adam meets award-winning improviser and director of the iconic Assassin’s Creed video games Simon Peacock to explore how the element of surprise makes his work and life more interesting.
Beginning with Simon’s early success as a professional improviser in Montreal, they discuss the 10 commandments of good improvisation, why routine and repetition ruin a performance, and what happens when you apply improv principles to your own wedding.
In the second half, Simon shares what it takes to give a more interesting audition, his experience as a director in the world of video games, and why audiences crave surprise.
We find out what preparation it takes to direct 2,000 lines of dialogue in one day, why it’s always a good idea to deliver a unique take in an audition (even if it doesn’t land you the job), and the terrible fate of a canvas sack called Bob.
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Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Let's Make This More Interesting is a podcast from eatbigfish. Thanks to our editor Ruth and our producers at Tiny Podcasts.
Why Your Dog is a Better Producer Than You (with Maz Farrelly)
In this episode, Adam speaks to reality TV producer Maz Farrelly. Maz has made some of the biggest shows on 3 continents, including Britain’s Got Talent, Dancing with the Stars, Big Brother and Celebrity Apprentice – interviewing 12,000 hopefuls along the way. She now works with businesses to help them make themselves more interesting.
Maz shares her learnings on what it takes to really engage an audience, the three secrets of great content, and how to be interesting enough to get cast in one of her shows. Along the way, we discuss:
- Why, if you’re ambitious, you have to see everything as a ‘production’
- How your dog produces you to get what it wants
- What ‘white noise’ is, and why it matters
- How to interview well enough to get into the Big Brother house
- Why many of us have become lazy producers, particularly in big companies
- When ‘fine’ isn’t good enough if you want to be the Number 1 Show
- Asking the questions to discover the interesting story in everyone (and how to make a dull person interesting for a TV audience)
- Why you can only last for a week before you ‘leak’
- The power of subverting expectations as a producer
- The recipe for great content on television (and how to play Susan Boyle Bingo)
- The importance of really ‘scratching’ to get to what’s interesting
- Three bits of advice on how to be a great producer and be more interesting
- How to apply this to our business and personal life
Maz is as fascinating as she is funny. We hope you enjoy this wonderfully stimulating conversation with someone who makes everything she does a little more interesting.
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Find out about Maz's work here: https://www.mazspeaks.com/
Follow Maz on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maz-speaks/
Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
Why you need a third Spider Drop (with Heather McGill)
In this episode Adam talks to Heather McGill, Head of Spectator Experience at London 2012 and previously Tour Manager for the Spice Girls, about how to create more interesting shared experiences.
Heather shares lessons about how to create more engaging spectator experiences for live tours and ‘global mega events’ such as the Olympics and Paralympics, large industry expos like Dubai 2020, and her current project, the Harry Potter Forbidden Forest, which has sold over a million tickets.
In a wide-ranging conversation that spans her career Heather reveals insights on:
- The real competition when you are designing experiences
- How to structure the development of an experience
- The importance of the lull, as well as the high
- What exponentially changing audience expectations really means for being more interesting in experience today
- Sir Jonny Ive’s one piece of advice on designing the London 2012 experience
- The three ways to tackle a problem in the experience
- The value of creating common ownership
- How constraints make the experience better
- How to build wonder
…Oh, and why the third spider drop makes all the difference.
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Find out more about Heather’s work: https://www.unifyexp.com/
The Harry Potter Forbidden Forest Exerience: https://hpforbiddenforestexperience.com/
Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
The Cost of Dull in Business (with Peter Field)
In this opening episode, Adam discusses a new analysis that reveals the real financial cost to a business of being dull with Marketing Effectiveness expert Peter Field. Exactly how much more expensive is it to run dull communications than engaging ones? And what can we learn from people who can’t afford to bore their audiences?
Adam and Peter's conversation explores:
- Why we should be much more intolerant of dull external and internal communication than we are
- A simple test: ‘The six slide rule’
- How we can make dull itself more interesting to those we need to change - by putting a concrete cost on it
- Peter’s new analysis, and what it reveals
- So why is it that so many well-intentioned, smart people are choosing to be dull?
- A look ahead to the future guests on the podcast: people whose job it is to make dull subjects interesting, and the two kinds of things we’ll learn from them
- 3 things you can do tomorrow
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Download Peter's slides on The Cost of Dull here: https://thechallengerproject.com/blog/the-cost-of-dull-with-peter-field
Follow Peter's work here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-field-20110120/
Connect with Adam on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
With thanks to our editor Ruth and producer Ross.
When Kerosene met Dull (with Peter Field)
A year into the project, what have we learnt about the real price of being dull? Adam opens Season 2 with one of the core collaborators on The Extraordinary Cost of Dull, marketing effectiveness expert Peter Field.
Peter and Adam share how the Extraordinary Cost of Dull has grown from an idea that kickstarted our last season to a 3-year research project with multiple contributors. One that has been sparking a vital conversation within the marketing and communications community over the last year.
Starting with their reflections on the response to the project so far, they discuss new developments including:
Data from the DMA that reveals what dull is costing us not just in TV, but through the whole funnel
Upcoming work from Dr Karen Nelson-Field, another core collaborator, on the real cost of choosing lower attention media platforms and channels
Peter’s latest findings on the business effects of dull, and its impact on brand trust
The development of the practical strategic tools to help marketers avoid dull from the start
They finish with a look at their ambitions for The Extraordinary Cost of Dull in the year head.
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The Extraordinary Cost of Dull Project is open to contributors. Do you have a data set to share with the project? Get in touch at hello@eatbigfish.com
Follow Peter's work here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-field-20110120/
Connect with Adam on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-morgan-3a473a/
Follow eatbigfish on Linkedin and Instagram
Trailer: Let's Make This More Interesting
Do you have moments in your business or personal life when you simply can’t afford to bore your audience? What can we do to hold their undivided attention when it really matters? To find out, Adam Morgan, founder of eatbigfish, speaks to fascinating people who excel at engaging their audience – be they distracted social scrollers, bored schoolchildren or cynical CEOs – and learns from them how we can all be much more interesting.
No one’s ever won the race by keeping pace
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